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Post by Major on Dec 8, 2011 15:40:12 GMT -5
On a side note Charisma is the reiatsu stat because it effects almost everything reiatsu related...
Intimidate uses Reiatsu surge, cha. Suppress Reiatsu: cha. Kido: cha. I could keep going.
Plus change the source kinda makes everyone sad...
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Post by Shirokiba on Dec 8, 2011 15:50:35 GMT -5
I'm not talking just one stat, but having to have Str, Dex, Con, Int, Wis and Cha high to make full effective use of a class is a little much, heck even if you splurge on weapon finesse and drop Str to an 8, it wont help much cause you still need 5/6 stats to use that class, while the others only need either A) Str/Dex/Con B) Str/Con/Cha (intimidate spam I don't care if I get hit warrior) for warriors for Kido they only need A) Dex/Con/Int/Cha (to be less squishy) or B) Dex/Int/Cha (and be squishy but a blaster)
Experts, on the other hand, are A) Dex/Con/Wis/Cha (to reduce MAD but not really be an expert) B) Dex/Con/Wis/Cha (able to use all class features, but sacrifice a static damage increase, and still have the risk of one of their biggest source of damage (to make up for low str) be negated by a feat, Improved Uncanny Dodge, which can be obtained by level 5) C) Str/Dex/Con (and be a cheap warrior knock off, but not have to rely on Sneak Attack as much) or D) Str/Dex/Cha (and be a cheap reiatsu warrior knock off with Kido) the other classes have the ability to fulfill their intended roles
Now, if we factor in Shunpo that is still feat heavy (as it should be, it gets freaking awesome later on so no complaints with that, it is a huge investment that pays off) 3-4 for stats for a class is fine but when it gets to the point of needing more, it's not feasible to build an effective character to do what the class was made for, while the other two can easily use only 2 or 3 stats and go "huh, we have 6 stats, but I only need half of them to be effective in my class" not to mention since Shunpo is something anyone can get, it's not actually helping experts any, as a Warrior Shinigami focused on Shunpo will outclass an expert doing the same thing, even if the expert only uses Str/Dex/Con it's not about making someone work off only one stat, but to consolidate some of the stats so that Experts can still function without needed every single stat heck being able to run off Str/Dex/Con/Wis would at least be viable (int really isn't needed super high due to the 8+int skill points, so long as int is a 10) but Wisdom is still a far cry more useful in bleach D20 than it was in D&D 3.5 (as it has an actual purpose in the system that makes having at least a 12 in it viable) and with point buy the Expert is going to be significantly weaker unless they min/max to the point of silliness with extra helpings of cheese (and that is never fun for the group, cause it makes people seek out to be the one man party just to survive) it wont hurt to have different classes cast off different stats. You make it sound like letting wisdom or int be a casting stat without a feat investment will utterly break the system, when your using D20 which already has wis, int, or cha as casting stats without feats as part of the core spell casting system.
All it will do is allow people to ignore stats they do not want/need/care to use it wont make them uber, it wont make them 'the best' or 'be able to play the game solo' it will allow them to be effective, and there is nothing wrong with being effective without spending a feat to change a casting stat. Also, not everyone goes for change the source, or at least, I don't. I tend to build my characters with a concept in mind, and that typically needs at least 3 stats at any given point, some times 4, in the case right now, I need 5 because of an investment in charisma is required. I'm not asking to run off of one stat, but forcing charisma on a class that really doesn't need it (just having ranks in the cha based skills will be more than enough, as they tend to have static DCs bar bluff, but who needs bluff, feinting is useless Senka is much better and doesn't make you wait a whole turn to take advantage of it, until Senka is obtained, flank with an ally, get a free +2 to attack and SA them)
I do not know where you got the idea I wanted everything for every class to run off a single stat, but you were mistaken. If i'd been asking to maker every class SaD I'd not have even bothered posting this, cause that'd be ridiculous. Heck, if I asked for everything to be SaD I'd be flaming myself right now and would send a PM to the admin to ban me for being an idiot >.> but that is not what I was asking
Also, cha is still not needed for an expert, wisdom is much more needed cause it affects will saves and unlike most cha based skills, wis based skills typically have higher DCs or are opposed checks, so you need a higher stat than most cha based. The only opposed check on cha is bluff the rest are low DC abilities.
This is, of course, just a suggestion, but still it'd make much more sense to give a stat a class needs more for casting than to give one they hardly will need/use/benefit from outside of very specific builds
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Post by dairiuschi on Dec 8, 2011 17:33:22 GMT -5
Okay...I gotta throw myself in here. Why do you NEED dex? Ranged attacks? Only projectile Zanpakutou and Ray Kido, AC? Most of that is from Zanpakutou bonus and Class bonus anyways...reflex? Make it your good save, get lightningreflexes if you have to.
Next: Con, HP and fort, Again could make fort your good save or take a feat to do so, and you only need 13 to take blooded as many times as you want.
Int: You don't NEED it, experts have the highest skill points of all the classes...your Int is fine unless you have saving throws based off it.
Wis: What? Will saves? See con and dex, listen/spot and sense motive(reiatsu)? You have crazy skill ranks. Problem solved.
Cha: Only need it for Kido, and generally speaking most of these dont rely on saving throws unless you're doing a mind-effecting thing or AoE, stick to rays so you can get SA on it, no save aside from additional effects.
You now only NEED Str for attack/damage, since you seem to be desparately wanting to melee main this character, and maybe some Cha so you can use most Kido at later levels.
You're taking auxillery stats and giving them more use then they really have...this system is already so powerful I'd be afraid to try splicing it with any other system, no need to make the characters morese. And hey, you can always spend shikai abilities to up stats while it's active, so your stats are what they need to be for battles, where generally they matter most.
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Post by blackestofmages on Dec 8, 2011 17:46:45 GMT -5
see, thats my point. you don't need anything but strength, and maye a little smattering of cha/con. and strength can be replaced if you want to it's far more efficient to use those 9 skills a level to get your sense motive/surpress reitsu (though thats cha not wis, so thats a moot point ) than using wis. you have 9 skills a level and can get seasoned for more if you want them (though you have enough) you have no need for wis or dex, other than as a reason to complain and those where your two main points, saying the two useful stats weren't needed
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Post by dairiuschi on Dec 8, 2011 17:59:52 GMT -5
I do have one suggestion on the matter though, I think Experts should have 2 good saves...for one thing: The generic classes in DnD had the expert with 2 saves, another better example, might be the bard. 6th level spells? Check, average BAB? Check, Great skill selection and points? Check. All it's missing is the 2 good saves.
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Post by blackestofmages on Dec 8, 2011 18:07:00 GMT -5
maybe, I't does make sense as most classes do have 2 good ones...
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Post by dairiuschi on Dec 8, 2011 18:10:04 GMT -5
I think Warrior should stick with 1(fort usually, as they are the fighters), Kido also works with one(Will, Sorcerers), but the rogue was one of the few 'skilled' classes that only had one good save, but they also got 10d6 SA for free and were the only ones who could detect the truly deadly traps.
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Post by Shirokiba on Dec 8, 2011 19:00:05 GMT -5
I still don't see the point in forcing every class to cast off the same stat when the system this was adapted from (D20) doesn't even do that >.> each class had a different stat, Experts are far from being a sorcerer and those 9 skills points/level only work in you plan to take only a few skills so you can keep them at reasonable ranks. As for seasoned, why use a feat for extra skill points when it can be avoided and that feat be used on something to keep you, and your party, alive >.> Seasoned is good if you're going for a straight up back row fighter that will never see melee combat for any reason. Also, I kinda HAVE to have a high dex or the save DCs of my assassination-type Zanpakuto ability wont be high enough to matter, and since it cannot be used with ranged attacks, I kinda HAVE to melee with it, I don't exactly have the option of being a back row fighter with this. Though my choice of Shikai doesn't have any impact on this discussion, this is seriously about cha and why it should not be required for every class to be force to have cha as a casting stat or burn a feat to get a different one more suited to the class.
Not like the DC goes up for each assassination ability I have or something which would be totally ridiculous so please do not assume I am asking for that, like with all the other assumptions people have been falsely making since I posted about this.
Con so I don't have to drop a feat for hp Shunpo takes a lot of feats, even with some of them thankfully being removed, like not needed dodge or the mobility feat otherwise I'd be struggling even more for feats, I'm having to delay certain feats till later just to be able to get my Shikai where I want it, which is fine, investing in ones Shikai is worth it, not complaining about that.
Wis obvious, speaks for itself, has nothing at all to do with will saves.
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Post by blackestofmages on Dec 8, 2011 19:13:32 GMT -5
ok, you seem to have misunderstood, the save DC of all zanpakuto abilities should be based of your reitsu stat, we just havent got round to updating it all yet I elive we have already had this conversation. if you look at the updated version, you'll see all the save DCs mention reitsu modifier, as that is what all the save DCs from zanpakutos should use so the save DC of your assassination abilities would be based off your charisma modifier, not dex. thus, and I know I've told you this before so I feel more than justified in doing this, two freaking stats the system is currently in the alpha statges where we're still pinning down the mechanics, but when I say these things it dosen't mean I'm lying to you and wis is still is useless. plain and simple. if your DM dosen;t want you tto find someone, then having maxed out sense motive, toys to help it and everything and rolling a 20 won't help, and if they want you to find someone you will. you have no need for it, but want to insist that you do and no-one has made any assumptions. you have made comments without making yourself clear, and the "assumptions" are the most logical interpreatation of those comments.
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Post by Shirokiba on Dec 8, 2011 19:18:13 GMT -5
.... why charisma >.> that just makes no sense, at all.
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Post by dairiuschi on Dec 8, 2011 19:25:23 GMT -5
Question(Unrelated)
Sneak Attack, for the first taking is it supposed to be 1d6+1d6/4 levels? Or 1d6/4 levels? If the latter, why require it to be taken at 1st level when it gets you nothing till 4th?
And why require 1st level only at all? So many other things work retroactively that normally don't, like skill points.
Maybe if you plan to take it twice require the first to be 1st level, but if you take it later you can only take it the one time?
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Post by blackestofmages on Dec 8, 2011 19:26:29 GMT -5
...it makes more sense for your magical power to come from intelect or wisdom when it's instinctive and part of your soul? you need intelect or wisdom to have a strong soul? I'd hate to see your world... the soul is you, it is your force of personality. charisma represents force of personality. thus, charisma was the one chosen to represent your soul it's also the one stat no-one (except you ¬,¬) complains about as a caster stat, since any character concept can be made charismatic. and from a balance point, it the middle of useful ness of the mental stats (and sorry, but the majority of the internet vs shiro = shiro looses. wisdom based anything is always bemoaned) also, as to your expert = intelect stance, go read the quote we chose to sum up the class
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Post by blackestofmages on Dec 8, 2011 19:27:58 GMT -5
Question(Unrelated) Sneak Attack, for the first taking is it supposed to be 1d6+1d6/4 levels? Or 1d6/4 levels? If the latter, why require it to be taken at 1st level when it gets you nothing till 4th? the firstAnd why require 1st level only at all? So many other things work retroactively that normally don't, like skill points. I unno. before my timeMaybe if you plan to take it twice require the first to be 1st level, but if you take it later you can only take it the one time? I think you can take it again at later levels if you already have it. you are getting a heck of a lot for two feats, so don't bismirch your lot
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Post by dairiuschi on Dec 8, 2011 19:28:13 GMT -5
EDIT: My point was why require the first taking at 1st level if it gives no benefit?
If it was meant to be worded as 1d6+1d6/4 levels then no issue
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Post by blackestofmages on Dec 8, 2011 19:28:54 GMT -5
it wasn't, as you just skipped my answer by posting
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