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Post by Nerameshu on Sept 16, 2011 17:19:52 GMT -5
I will say that I'm not opposed to some of the changes you're proposing, but I think you're forgetting something. Hollows cannot become Arrancar until they are exposed to the Hogyoku. Shinigami cannot become Vizard until they fight their Inner Hollow (which emerges due to exposure to the Hogyoku).
Also, Ulquiorra is the only Espada who could attain Segunda Etapa, and it has been speculated that he was also the only one who was a Vasto Lorde before becoming an Arrancar.
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Post by TheMageKing on Sept 16, 2011 17:23:00 GMT -5
Wrong. Hollows CAN become Arrancar without the Hogyoku. Did you not read the manga?
There were Aranncar Pre-Aizen betrayal, and they didn't have that, so...
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Post by Nerameshu on Sept 16, 2011 17:29:37 GMT -5
I read the manga. And they didn't advance past Adjucha/Vasto Lorde until Aizen showed up. Source: Flashbacks from Grimmjow and Tia Harribel.
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Post by blackestofmages on Sept 16, 2011 17:31:09 GMT -5
I added segunda espata because Ava mentioned it also, the hogyoku was NOT the only way to become an arrancar, just the method Aizen used, unless Aizen had the hogyoku back in manga no 25, when the reader is shown the two arrancar who guarded heuco mundo and met with ichigo etcwith their broken masks, and shown grand fisher removing his mask. so it is possible, just those created by Aizen are more 'complete' and thus stronger. there where others before him. @ ulluqoria being the only vasto lord: no, just no. Barragan specifically states he was one, Starkk couldn't go near adjucha's because they died, and I don't know about harribel. also, the completeness of their human forms implies they where vasto lordes. think about it, why would number 4 be the more powerful level of hollow than those higher above him?
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Post by blackestofmages on Sept 16, 2011 17:35:11 GMT -5
plus, if you don't want people becoming arrancar due to lack of hyogosu, then shall we also remove captian, since there's a limited number to them, and vizard too due to being made of the same source? the simple answer is no. this is trying to design a DnDesque system to work with the bleach setting, but in the intrest of letting the players have fun they can potentially reach something that a regular mook in the bleach universe could not, such as espada, captain or even basic arrancar. it requires some editing of the mythos to really run a game in a bleach setting to begin with, I'm sure you can forgive people having access to cool toys once in a while sorry if this came across as blunt - haven't slept properly in a few days.
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Post by Ava on Sept 16, 2011 17:51:42 GMT -5
Shinigamification is possible without the Hogyoku. Visored.. is possible, obviously. Tia Harribel was a Vasto Lorde, for sure.
In my opinion, the top 4 Espada were Vasto Lorde, as all of them took multiple opponents to be defeated, excluding Ulquiorra who got Plotkai'd.
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Post by Nerameshu on Sept 16, 2011 17:57:11 GMT -5
I understand the lack of sleep. It's messing with my memory. I forgot entirely about Barragan and Starrk. Though, to be honest, I'm still rather sure Tia wasn't one. However, my point remains about Ulquiorra being the only one to use Segunda Etapa.
On the note about editing the mythos, no, I'm not against it. (Though, yes, the flash backs where Aizen created other Arrancar suggests it was before he left Soul Society, and therefore had been planning this for a long time. See his glasses? lol) My point, though, is that it seems as though each of these crossovers took place due to the influence of the Hogyoku.
So, yes, let's edit it. But let's keep in mind what we're editing for this system, and let's remember how it happened.
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Post by blackestofmages on Sept 16, 2011 17:59:30 GMT -5
so, just wondering, should I remove the segunda eparta from the class, or give it a minimum level to entry? slightly ignoring the normal fluff at the moment for the purpose of balancing the class?
also, in uluqoria being the only one capable of doing a segunda eparta, but they'd been arrancar for like four months max? in that time he managed to get two releases - he's improving at ichigo's speed! other arrancar could potentially learn the ability given more time, since it's never confirmed no one else could do it ever.
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Post by Nerameshu on Sept 16, 2011 18:09:34 GMT -5
Segunda Etapa should either have a level minimum or the clause it does now-- mirroring the Ressureccion from the Vizard Unleased.
And I see your point about them learning it.
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Post by blackestofmages on Sept 16, 2011 18:18:27 GMT -5
see, I dislike making segunda eparta work like the vizard unleashed thingy, as that's a mindless bezerker rage that kills everyhing nearby (like how ichigo beat ulluqoria in segunda eparta) as opposed to the controled release Ulluqoria shew. unless you mean dying, where I can understand that.
upping the minmum level to 20, however, meaning that it'll mostly be encountered by epic or near epic level characters
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Post by Major on Sept 16, 2011 18:31:21 GMT -5
I could be mistaken but I'm pretty sure the manga didn't say anyone was a Vasto Lorde. Again, it's been awhile since the Arrancar were around. In the anime Tia was a Vasto Lorde, but then again in the anime bount exist.
As for the Segunda Eparta, only Ulquiora could do it AT THE TIME. He really wasn't special at all so it was highly possible any arrancar could get it given time. Also, fan speculation of being a Vasto Lorde shouldn't really have any impact...just saying.
As for Vizard Ichigo became a Vizard without the Hygokeu.
Last, as mentioned its a D&D system. If we limited things then we'd have to cut a lot out. Example: Quincy. There are almost none left. Vizard Unleashed: Only Ichigo did it and he has the whole plotkai thing going. Espada, only ten. Captain, only twelve. etc, etc
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Post by Dionon on Sept 16, 2011 18:47:35 GMT -5
If I remember correctly, one of the supplimental information books for Bleach listed Harribel, Starrk and Barragan as the only Vastro Lorde among the Espada.
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Post by Nerameshu on Sept 16, 2011 18:56:43 GMT -5
Captain, only twelve. etc, etc Thirteen, lol. My point was about what I had seen from reading the manga. (Granted I had to watch the anime to catch up until the fight with Aizen, but I went back and read most of the Arrancar arc.) If you read, you'll see that, despite my arguments about what happened in the manga/anime, I support changing it for the game. Also, I agreed that it made sense that the other Espada could learn to use the Segunda Etapa. And see what I said about Kisuke talking about the Hogyoku being in Rukia's Gigai. But, back to the system, the way I read the Ressureccion and Segunda Etapa suggested that once you recover from it once, you can use it at will, just as Ulquiorra did.
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Post by Ava on Sept 16, 2011 18:57:04 GMT -5
I lack those books, but I am saddened by that knowledge if Ulquiorra wasn't a Vasto Lorde.
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Post by blackestofmages on Sept 16, 2011 19:11:59 GMT -5
Captain, only twelve. etc, etc But, back to the system, the way I read the Ressureccion and Segunda Etapa suggested that once you recover from it once, you can use it at will, just as Ulquiorra did. hmmm, might be a fair way for the character to obtain it a little earlier. as long as you don't mean also implementing the bezerker uncontrollable killing machine part as well, as that's not really what he does. so level 20 or death to unlock the ability sounds fair? though if it can be activated by death, I'm cutting the chance down to 50%, before you get every hollow pc killing themselves to obtain super powers...
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