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Post by blackestofmages on Sept 14, 2011 7:09:16 GMT -5
so, I know this is the topic that has been splitting the dev team the most (well, Major v most other people ) , so I feel it'd be for the best if we adressed it quickly on the new site: so far the issue raised, when cut down to it's roos is, is: a) Some of the zankaputo abilities, with no cost currently or limit, get very overpowering very quickly, but those abilities are the ones that add the most flavour to the zankaputo section, so they really need to stay b) the solution suggested so far is to add an SEP cost to some zankaputo abilities, however, as Major pointed out, a shinigami should always be able to use their zankaputo regardless of the situation at hand, something this could get in the way of. now, currently. KingofMages (who I just realised is now my king due to naming.... coup'n time!) is working on an edited version of the shinkai abilities, iirc, so we'll have to wait and see what that suggest. personaly, I'm in favour for some of the abilities to gain a cost. those that aren't purely basic, but those that emulate the higher level spells (such as whirlwind, black tentacles etc) whilst leaving support abilities/basic buffs free. however, inspired by hitsugaya's sword drawing power from the atmosphere for his ice type atacks, i propose adding a rule kin dof like this if they do get a cost: power source: If a shinigami attempts to use a zankaputo ability in an environment with an abundance of whatever the weapons type is (fire for a fire zankaputo, water for water, blood for blood etc), they may aleviate the cost, though the number of daily uses (if any) are still consumed. for a blood type zankaputo, the user can always choose to subsitiue x number of hp in the place of the cost if there are no other viable sources of vast quantities of blood around. I also suggest, maybe, giving some of the stronger abilities a limit per day. please try and keep this topic from becoing a flame war, as I know it's a touchy subject
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Post by blackestofmages on Sept 14, 2011 7:30:09 GMT -5
as a follow up: here's my suggestion for a slightly edited water tree, using some costs.
changes done are based of the limits per day option as opposed to a direct cost.
underwaterbreathing and water walk are gone because undersea knight already covered both effects, so now it takes only 3 abilities and 1 action to let all your freinds be fish like you, as opposed to 4, 2 actions and no improved swin speed.
the number of times per day may be a problem, but that can be tweaked if it gets to overpowering, but this was just a suggestion to allow a shinigami to have limits to some of the aboilities wilst still being able to use their basic zankaputo and it's basic abilities even without SEP
also, I left mirages alone, as to get them to be dangerous requires 4 abilities, the target to fail a will save, AND the shinigami to do nothing whilst they're active, so limiting that is silly. especially since any other shinigami, a hollow or a fullbringer can get true sight with one ability, which automatically disbelieves them
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Post by Dionon on Sept 14, 2011 10:15:16 GMT -5
My opinion might not matter for much, but I fully disagree with the idea of SEP Cost and Daily Usage limits on Zanpakutou abilities. SEP is in short enough supply, especially if they are going to revamp the system to give you less of it and Daily usages are pure fail as they've always been.
Why should a Water Zanpakutou be limited in how much water it can create a day? It's not like they're creating tsunamis with their zanpakutous, just water. And if you're going to limit stuff like Whirlpool, why not limit Vortex or Constricting Vortex? They are just as powerful if not more so.
In the end, the Zanpakutou system should be left alone except for a few minor tweaks for balance's sake. But again, that's just my opinion.
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Post by blackestofmages on Sept 14, 2011 10:38:07 GMT -5
well, they kind of are making tsunami's, because that's the effective effecte of whirlpool, or it could be combined with the wind domain though the limit should have been on vortex and not on create water... I understand this, but adding a daily use to some of the abilities is a minor tweak. the problem here is that some of the zankaputo abilities are so beyond game breaking it's not funny. I chose water because, tbh, it's currently the only one that's not going to make "lolhax, I iz uze my zankaputo if you iz notz me, you iz deadzorz xoxoxox lolz" the route of the game now, i don;t want to have to have someone use SEP to access theoir zankaputo's abilities, so i suggested the daily uses system. without add some form of limiter, the only way to not destroy the game by playing a shinigami would be to entierly remove the option for those abilities from the zankaputo section which not only kills the theme part, but also feels like we're throwing crap at people who want to be shinigami. I would have suggested making using some zankaputo abilities reduce the time it's released, as every shinigami has copious amounts of that (30 rounds minimum, with a cost of an extra 2 sep extended that by another 30 minimum), so it means can choose to keep their zankaputo active or to use superabilities and potentially need to rerelase - but that'd make constant release sickeningly overpowered
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Post by blackestofmages on Sept 14, 2011 10:44:59 GMT -5
though this is more of a suggestions post anywya. It's purpouse is to try and gather everyones opinions of different systems for shikai to work with, so feel free to post the tweaks you feel'd help the system ;D also, I'm suprised the people who dislike the idea of a cost haven't commented that some of the fire abilities already have an SEP cost to use
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Post by Ava on Sept 14, 2011 10:53:41 GMT -5
Flaming posts will be deleted or edited, or be asked to edited. I'm not tolerant of destroying a civil discussion.
*We're not revamping the SP system as of this moment for less.
*We might, depending on a few matters.. such as if Shikai abilities gain an SP cost or not, if they do not, we may lower the overall SP amount and perhaps the number of categories. (Maybe down to 6, allowing for a "stat" roll to be used for determining your score.)
*Not all powers will have a cost if we -do- add a cost. Create Water will have an SP cost, others may not, since you've already created the water, you're just now controlling it. If we do add an SP cost to some of those, it will be low costs to express a small amount of reiryoku invested in the manipulation of the water.
Again, this is not a for sure thing. What is for sure.. is I am going to cut it down to 6 categories and implement the stat roll/point buy.
As for uses per day, shikai and Bankai already had this before. It was removed when I added the SEP (SP) system as an alternative.
When I rework the SEP system Every category will have a decent amount of SP to use their powers.
By 3rd level you should be able to -decently- use your powers without issue.
If we add a cost at all.
Edit: I will not implement straight uses per day, that's what the SP cost is for, after all. It just lets -you- monitor how often you can do something.
Edit2: also, I'm suprised the people who dislike the idea of a cost haven't commented that some of the fire abilities already have an SEP cost to use
My Answer: I added Phoenix Fire, it's the only one with an SP cost currently, as to limit how often you can heal. If remove the cost I will likely be changing it a tad. It's also going to be a Specialist power only, likely so is the Third Degree burns.
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Post by Dionon on Sept 14, 2011 12:17:46 GMT -5
though this is more of a suggestions post anywya. It's purpouse is to try and gather everyones opinions of different systems for shikai to work with, so feel free to post the tweaks you feel'd help the system ;D also, I'm suprised the people who dislike the idea of a cost haven't commented that some of the fire abilities already have an SEP cost to use You know? I didn't realize that Phoenix Fire existed till you mentioned it here lol. Shows how often I check the Shikai types on this system. But as for a suggestion on how to work stuff, I honestly don't know about a different system to work with. Perhaps a point buy system would be in order with each shikai ability being worth a certain amount of points that you get when you receive shikai and extra for leveling up. Example: Shikai grants... say... 10 points to start building your Shikai. You're a Fire/Projectile user. Lets say that Flame Blade, being an activatable ability and one that has a signifigant game advantage, is worth 4 points. That's 4 points out of 10, leaving you with 6 points left to craft the rest of your starting shikai. Something like Pheonix Fire would be worth say 10 points as it's a very powerful but limited use ability... For a system like this, I'd say give 10 points when Shikai is achieved, and 5 points every other level when you would normally gain an additional Shikai Ability in the old system. You'd be able to save points for very potent abilities, and you'd still have to buy prerequisite abilities for the higher ones. This would limit Shikais to very few powerful abilities, but not screw the players if they run out of SP for the day in say a war scenario where Encounters happen very frequently.
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Post by blackestofmages on Sept 14, 2011 12:30:59 GMT -5
For a system like this, I'd say give 10 points when Shikai is achieved, and 5 points every other level when you would normally gain an additional Shikai Ability in the old system. You'd be able to save points for very potent abilities, and you'd still have to buy prerequisite abilities for the higher ones.. that'd help make it easier to select abilitites, but it still dosen;t stop someone - once they have the ability from just spamming it, which is the concern some people have at the moment.
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Post by Dionon on Sept 14, 2011 12:41:47 GMT -5
It would also limit the really powerful abilities to those that scrimp and save their points. It's not like every Tom, Dick and Harry is going to have the powerful abilities. They are going to have lesser, less potent abilities and those that scrimp and save are going to be at a serious disadvantage till later levels when they can afford the higher abilities.
I can see a modest SP cost to certain powerful abilities in this system. Ones that are activated might require 1 SP to activate or 1 SP per tier (IE: Flame Blade would cost 1, but Superior Flame Blade would cost 3SP to activate).
But I'm curious. What abilities are really that bad spammed... I mean stuff like Wounding is bad, but that now requires a Fortitude Save so the impact is mitigated. What abilities would constitute an SP cost?
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Post by Major on Sept 14, 2011 12:54:52 GMT -5
The SP for Shikai systems is something I dislike, but would deal with. The point buy Shikai however I strongly disagree with and feel it would damage the system.
I still disagree that these changes are necessary (of all the Bleach games I've played I've never seen such a large gap in power that the others felt useless). The closest I've seen to this was with the summon school, but even that wasn't a vast power difference.
Glancing over that suggested water change, I think it is rather pointless, but it is minor enough it shouldn't kill a build.
However I am still of the belief that adding SP cost to a shikai is retarded. As I've said plenty of times this should be the one thing a Shinigami can ALWAYS fall back on. A shinigami shouldn't have to stop and think "Shoot, should I use my shikai ability or should I save SP?"
I understand why Wizards have to think "Should I use my spell or save the slot." But why should a fighter have to say "Should I use my sword or save a swing?"
Technically swinging a sword long enough will tire you out (I'm a professional sword instructor for my town's medieval fair and am considered one of the best sword fighters on the East Coast so I know what I'm talking about) but we don't give people a "Energy" stat that determines how many swings per day they can use.
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Post by Dionon on Sept 14, 2011 13:02:18 GMT -5
The SP for Shikai systems is something I dislike, but would deal with. The point buy Shikai however I strongly disagree with and feel it would damage the system. I still disagree that these changes are necessary (of all the Bleach games I've played I've never seen such a large gap in power that the others felt useless). The closest I've seen to this was with the summon school, but even that wasn't a vast power difference. Glancing over that suggested water change, I think it is rather pointless, but it is minor enough it shouldn't kill a build. However I am still of the belief that adding SP cost to a shikai is retarded. As I've said plenty of times this should be the one thing a Shinigami can ALWAYS fall back on. A shinigami shouldn't have to stop and think "Shoot, should I use my shikai ability or should I save SP?" I understand why Wizards have to think "Should I use my spell or save the slot." But why should a fighter have to say "Should I use my sword or save a swing?" Technically swinging a sword long enough will tire you out (I'm a professional sword instructor for my town's medieval fair and am considered one of the best sword fighters on the East Coast so I know what I'm talking about) but we don't give people a "Energy" stat that determines how many swings per day they can use. I don't think that they're doing what you're saying they're doing... If they're doing anything like this at all (It's still just a suggestion). I feel like you do, that SP costs should be reserved for only the most broken of abilities and that normal abilities should be left alone to be used as much as the player wants. I don't know exactly what everyone thinks needs the SP costs, but I'll agree that the very powerful abilities could use SP costs to activate.
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Post by Ava on Sept 14, 2011 13:41:44 GMT -5
On my phone so this will be brief..
If we add costs it will only be for powerful effects. Also, dionon, phoenix fire was added just recently heh.
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Post by nosugref4323 on Sept 14, 2011 14:17:13 GMT -5
I know that I'm very new to the system but here is my take... If we knew in advanced that our SEP would determine how often or what we could do would we have traded them the way we did?
Also if high powered abilities are needed to make the game, but they can be spammed constantly, why not purpose a ceiling? This ability can be used only X amounts of times per turn/day/encounter/etc.
Then it must recharge using the SPR and some other modifier to decrease the recharge time. They could also try and "will" the technique to work if they give up a certain amount of hit points or take con damage once they have run out of uses or something.
Like I said I'm no expert but this way I think both parties win. Not as much spamming(well limited to some extent) and low SPR people aren't effected in a negative manner. (to much)
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Post by Major on Sept 14, 2011 14:33:02 GMT -5
On my phone so this will be brief.. If we add costs it will only be for powerful effects. Also, dionon, phoenix fire was added just recently heh. In which comes the big debate which power are sooooo "powerful". I've said it before, I'll say it once more. If an ability is so strong why not limit the ability (like we did with wounding) NOT limit the whole shikai system?
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Post by Ava on Sept 14, 2011 14:38:20 GMT -5
Truth be told, all I am hearing now is "why should non-kido users have to pay SP to use their magic?"
It's just like a Kido user using Kido, why should they pay SEP to use their spells?
I keep hearing everyone saying it's going to be hard on people with low SP, but, no, it isn't. Not in a meaningful way. You'll still be able to finish the battle before running out.
I'm telling you it isn't going to because when I revamp the system, everyone will be capable of functioning -just- fine because as I said not -every- power will have a cost.
Assuming we add costs at all. As we may not.
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