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Post by Nerameshu on Dec 3, 2011 22:46:08 GMT -5
Reasoning:
First off, my DM and I always use maximized HP figures for out games. This has never been a bad thing. However, with a system where some classes purposefully have maximized HP for power reasons, this could create a problem. Shinigami characters would not have the same feel of power to them in a game where Quincies and Modsouls, for instance, have the same amount of HP. Conversely, if we removed the maximized HP from Shinigami characters, the classes would be more balanced.
Second, the Shinigami classes do not automatically die at -10 HP. Personally, I'm in favor of keeping that, and granting that feature to the Hollow subtype. However, I feel that this clause, added to the maximized HP, is just too much. Not only do they have more HP than the other classes, but the Shinigami just don't die when they could? I don't like it. So, my idea is that we give Hollows the ability to stay standing for a while longer, and remove the maximized HP from Shinigami.
So, let me know what you think. This is just my thoughts on the matter, but I really want to know if you agree or disagree.
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Post by blackestofmages on Dec 3, 2011 22:52:01 GMT -5
the WiP, mod-approved hollow classes on the wiki already have this, though I agree with maximization. everyone should get it, or no-one should
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Post by Nerameshu on Dec 3, 2011 23:03:10 GMT -5
Awesome. Keeping this poll open until the 7th of December, 2011. This way, we can have some nice little Christmas goodies in all the little Bounts' stockings this year.
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Post by Shirokiba on Dec 3, 2011 23:16:21 GMT -5
I personally think the Shinigami maximized HP should stay, that or the Shinigami need to get their reiatsu-based damage reduction back cause even compared to human's with spiritual powers Shinigami were able to shrug off the damage like it was nothing (obviously not the case for the mook soul reapers, but that could just be a rather large gap in levels, but I highly doubt such in the case among the main cast)
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Post by Nerameshu on Dec 3, 2011 23:20:48 GMT -5
I personally think the Shinigami maximized HP should stay, that or the Shinigami need to get their reiatsu-based damage reduction back cause even compared to human's with spiritual powers Shinigami were able to shrug off the damage like it was nothing (obviously not the case for the mook soul reapers, but that could just be a rather large gap in levels, but I highly doubt such in the case among the main cast) Definitely taking that under consideration. If I do that, though, it won't be a lot, just enough to count.
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Post by blackestofmages on Dec 3, 2011 23:24:35 GMT -5
I'd say the lack of an ability to die (effectivly increase your hit dice by 1/2 and the ability to act whilst below 0) makes up for it. the only one shown to shrug off every hit without injury is Kenpachi, and he's, well, Kenpachi. everyone else took damage as normal, they could just take more of it
and we need to look at this from both the balance and fluff perspectives, where the don't die till -1/2 is already a HUGE bonus to survivability, without damage reduction
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Post by Nerameshu on Dec 3, 2011 23:35:13 GMT -5
I was thinking the DR could be an alternative class feature. Something I'll be working on, just to see if it works.
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Post by Shirokiba on Dec 3, 2011 23:37:07 GMT -5
Still, looking at the damage output of a Menos, even captain's wont last long if they get hit by those full attacks. I actually rolled out the damage of a Menos vs each class Kido Shinigami were destroyed in about 3 turns, Experts took a bit longer (5 turns) Warrior Shinigami actually were able to almost survive, but died 4 turns after the Expert. That was 3 level 12s destroyed by a single Menos of 8 HD
I mean an 8 HD menos can deal 4d6+24 damage on a bite, 2d8+12 each on two claw attacks, with a low chance of missing due to the massive bonus to strength they have. By the show, Captain's were supposed to be able to kill a menos alone (even beginner captains) but that doubled HP didn't help at all. The damage was just too much. Also, I had not even assigned hollow abilities to that menos yet, so losing the maximized HP would just make fighting a menos for a captain impossible, then if a higher HD menos or god forbid an Adjucha (with 12 HD) comes in and drops a bombshell on the Shinigami with their advanced hollow abilities (the mindless Menos would likely have a bunch of increased HD to increase the size of their HD but like I said, I had not even assigned their hollow abilities yet and it was already enough to party wipe three level 12s with Bankai access)
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Post by Nerameshu on Dec 3, 2011 23:40:33 GMT -5
Which attack did you use for the Menos? Because, keep in mind, there are now three different Hollow classes, and balance will continue to be an issue regardless of changes.
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Post by Shirokiba on Dec 3, 2011 23:44:17 GMT -5
It was just an HD hollow, not one of the hollow classes made it from the section in the source book on the wiki about hollows.
Though the vote appears to be going towards removing the maximized, so I'm currently outvoted anyway. I'm sure if the HP is lowered, the damage we can sustain will get lowered (as the system was made with that maximized HP in mind when determining the damage) That and really, I played a human character without maximized HP and did fine, but I also played a character that did not favor direct combat, so I was always way out of the reach of my enemies (gotta love being a Quincy sometimes)
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Post by blackestofmages on Dec 4, 2011 0:12:14 GMT -5
the old hollow had some major problems with the redonculous size-damage ration, and the DnD syste dramatically favours size over anythting, which can be a problem also, how did you not kill something with 64 HP (hollow template says D8) in 3 rounds? I can nuke that in one shot at level 5 with a shinigami, before hitting full attack. weakling heck, level 12 warrior shinigmai on an average full attack (assuming he went fire type, thus sporting fire blade to maximum, not kicking in any other abilities he may have). fighting like a kenpachi (total and irrevocable idiot) 1st round full attack, chance of mising something collosal is in the gutter, average damage per hit is 21 fire + 7 normal. 28 average per hit. thus average 56 in one round. that menos would be dead on turn two, since the only one didn't have the -1/2 thing. it's attacks are averaging at 38 + 24 + 8 so 70 per attack, using all of its listed abilities (though there's no mention of srength increase with size so it's used more abilities than me, and I get more). at level 12, with maximized d12 hit dice I have 144 health, so effectivly 221 to die. it needs to hit me on average 4 times to kill me, I need 2 and I'm not using my abilities expert would fight differently, use hit and run tactics with shunpo, meaning it gets one attack each round to my two, I can take 3 hits before dying, but deal on average 2 less points than the warrior a round, still won eaisly. again, using 3 shikai abilities out of 13 (before feats) kido has it harder, because they have access to crap spells right now, so he's using all 13 of those abilities. use shunpo each round to maintain maximum distance, blast away (assuming fire) with very large fire based blasts each round. I never get close and it has one shot at a ranged attack. I win unless it one shots me (and 8d6 damage averages at 28. it'd need maximum damage to do so) quid quad pro, I fail to see how you lost unless you shut your brain down. and all the captains on the show are somewhere in the level 40s compared to what they can do to everyone else and adjuchas would be hell of a lot weaker using the current system, due to loosing all their strength from shrinkage
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Post by Shirokiba on Dec 4, 2011 0:14:34 GMT -5
Your not factoring in the bonus HP from a high con modifier >.> 38 con +14 mod +14 hp/level in addition to the D8 rolled out the HP it had 176
Also, Menos are colossal 20ft reach with attacks.
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Post by blackestofmages on Dec 4, 2011 0:22:37 GMT -5
I didn;t give the shinigami one either, as unless you sed hillow abilities to get it, I assumed all stats where 10 aso, con 38 for level 8 means (elite array) 15 + 4 hollow abilities, to max + 16, so 31 maximum, and then it has no strength. I don't know what rules you used for this hollow, but I shudder to think of them also, giving the hollow abilities, I'd have given that warrior shinigami a real build and a potent zanpakuto type. and then it wouldn't even have been funny. sporting full assassination for all attack striking flat footed, with sneak attack equal to 6d6 on top on each attack (another 21). keeping fire, he'd have picked up cauterisation so he'd have healing if he needed it, and then picked up strength somewhere in the 20s myself, so +10, and full, two handed power attack for another +24 each hit, thus brinign average damage per hit to 83 . He also wouldn't be standing there taking full attacks (just making them), the swift action teleportation brings the fight to his pace entierly
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Post by Shirokiba on Dec 4, 2011 0:41:58 GMT -5
a colossal creature gets a bonus to con from size category. Not everyone has Shunpo, though. There's an ACF for Shunpo Ineptitude as well, if someone is running low on SEP they'd be less able to do anything (and there seems to be no rules for recovering SEP, so my assumption there is it recovers at the end of the day) with maximized HP more battles can be done in a day, with a Kido character healing and using a healing Zanpakuto more battles can be done it a day, really kills the SEP especially if one happens to get a low roll (which these characters did, since they were made using a straight D6, it was not fun for us we all got 1s....) which by level 12 gives only 27 SEP after using Bankai, it doesn't leave much room to use much else.
Anyway, I still think the maximized HP fits well with the show, cause if someone rolls low on their HD, that -1/2 hp thing (or -10, which ever is higher) to die wont matter much. Average roll on D10 is 5 assuming 36 point buy (which has been used in bleach games I've been in) you're not going to have a very high con.
Anyway, seems the vote is to give the max HP to humans and Shinigami so far.
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Post by blackestofmages on Dec 4, 2011 1:05:37 GMT -5
not against max HP. I'm against shinigami having more defences than everyone else and no, as stated a collosal creature gets no bonuses from size. they get a bonus from their leveling when using the "advancing a monster rule" and increasing in size that way. as the rulebook dosen't say the menos uses that rule (just that it changes size) it technically dosen't. and if it does, then adjuchas would be weaker in comparison due to loosing all that strength/con. the problem is more DnD's "bigger is better, but bookworm beats all" mentality than the power of the NPC class at every size other than Menos
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