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Post by outlawjt on Dec 3, 2011 17:31:21 GMT -5
Easy enough to fix my Fullbringer suggestion, then. Just change the evolution and ultimate evolution parts to match the version you just mentioned but leave the base part as I wrote it.
Apparently the current armor of the gods is already somewhat in line with my proposal minus the scaling base armor bonus. I just shifted the enhancement bonus into the second shikai ability from the first whereas you leave it in the first and have a better enchantment progression in the second. Honestly I just wanted to get the non-evolution version of fullbring armor close to in line (not perfectly matching as I do understand all Shinigami have some advantages over Fullbringers that require a little redressing via their abilities) with the result of investing 2 shikai abilities into armor as far as the Fullbringer vs Shinigami part of the whole armor argument is concerned.
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Post by blackestofmages on Dec 3, 2011 17:39:03 GMT -5
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Post by outlawjt on Dec 3, 2011 18:08:03 GMT -5
I like my version better but it's only viable if the system accepts my overall suggestion for the armor abilities (scaling base and all to balance it out at both low and high levels). And don't go getting all high about this. Before you posted the update in the proper thread you had to go scouring the forum to find the version you were getting all bent out of shape defending. These kinds of misunderstandings/arguments wouldn't happen if all of the current material was easier to find. Please try to remember that before the next time you bite someone's head off.
Are we alright now? Everything calm between us?
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Post by blackestofmages on Dec 3, 2011 18:21:01 GMT -5
ummmm, I posted both versions into either the shinigami barrier thread before the fullbringer abilities where up, or the thread titled "Fullbring development thread." I'm not sure where they should be other than that... though I do need to redirect the link in the to do list to the right thread
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Post by Major on Dec 4, 2011 1:01:10 GMT -5
I'm against the change to AC because at low levels the Fullbringer can only use it a few times per day and the Shinigami can't get it. At higher levels it doesn't matter...
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Post by outlawjt on Dec 4, 2011 1:30:00 GMT -5
Actually the Shinigami can get it with the Sealed Ability feat that early. As to the limited usage per day at low levels? For the first couple of levels you're only supposed to be fighting one or two encounters per day anyway so that should only be a minor concern. Plus, it makes your armor better at higher levels.
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Post by Dionon on Dec 4, 2011 1:44:52 GMT -5
I just wanted to weigh in on this. I think the current system is fair. In all honesty, if someone is going to take Armor, they are going to be the tank. A Tank needs to be able to take punishment. As a man who likes to play tanks, I think that this punishment is exemplified with a high AC (Since you know, no one here wants to use the Defense Roll rule.) Thus meaning, if you are denied the high AC, you cannot be a tank.
It doesn't matter who gets it first, the Fullbringer only has that one thing, while the Shinigami have a plethora of other options that can be brought to bear including Barrier abilities that the Fullbringer dreams about having.
I've waited this long to weigh in (Besides my 'why doesn't he get his own armor comment') because I felt this issue would fix itself given a moment of looking objectively at the classes. It hasn't so I figure I might as well lend a voice to the side that says "Look... Fullbringers get it first, and best... Shinigami get it second and have more options available to them including Kido, Barrier Abilities, Shunpo and Maximized Hit Dice."
Really, let's look at this in comparison.
Fullbringers: Armor.... whoo, they get armor
Shinigami Maximized Hit Points Barrier Abilities Kido (Including some bitchin defensive kido like Internal Armor) Shunpo Shunpo Feats
So when you look at it this way, a Shinigami CAN have a higher AC than a fully kitted out fullbringer, it just takes a round or two of preperation, and some defensive choices. BUT, if a Shinigami went full out defensive they would be the better of the two classes in that respect.
I hope this finds everyone, on each side of this argument in good spirits, and I hope I haven't made a fool of myself.
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Post by blackestofmages on Dec 4, 2011 1:58:10 GMT -5
heh, that part be resolved. right now the discusion is on whether or not the scaling, level based AC would be more efective/balanced than the flat value version though on one of the notes Major raised, I'm off to the fullbringer thread!
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Post by Dionon on Dec 4, 2011 2:04:12 GMT -5
Oh. See this is why I don't weigh in on stuff sometimes.
Level Based AC would be good at the end, but terrible in the beginning. A tank needs all the AC they can get.
Wait... doesn't the fullbringer AC scale with level? 8 (*for fullplate) +1 per 4 levels? And doesn't the Shinigami scale with level too? 8 (*for fullplate) + 1 per shikai pick taken?
So what's the difference?
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Post by blackestofmages on Dec 4, 2011 2:09:00 GMT -5
the difference was that he suggested, instead of starting at eight, it starting at 4 then progressing +1 per 2 levels, and the +4 bit. thus starting of at 4, ending up at 14, before enhancements, for heavy (dex + move penalties) or starrting at 2, ending at 8 before enhancements for light
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Post by Dionon on Dec 4, 2011 2:26:48 GMT -5
That's kinda bull... Honestly, I'll take the old way thank you. Just because the other way takes the option to be a tank right out of the window. +4 to AC from Armor is crap to a tank. At level 1, which is where that +4 is from, that's an AC of 18 for Warrior Shinigami or 19 for a Fullbringer assuming a +1 Max Dex Bonus. That blows. I'm sorry, I'll take the old system and like it.
Honestly, with the old system, it might end up at 1 less, but it makes you a good tank at an early level. With the old system, the AC would be 22 for Warrior Shinigami, and a 23 for a Fullbringer. That's better at the levels that really matter for you to be a tank on. The first few. After that it's a matter of hit points and special abilities.
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Post by outlawjt on Dec 4, 2011 2:30:07 GMT -5
Dionon, that +4 to AC is in addition to the character's class bonus to defense. And Dex up to the max Dex of the armor they choose.
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Post by blackestofmages on Dec 4, 2011 2:30:31 GMT -5
thats where he got 18/19 from
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Post by blackestofmages on Dec 4, 2011 2:30:41 GMT -5
otherwise it'd be 14
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Post by Dionon on Dec 4, 2011 2:31:18 GMT -5
Dionon, that +4 to AC is in addition to the character's class bonus to defense. And Dex up to the max Dex of the armor they choose. Yeah... I already figured that in. I'll still take the old system any day.
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