Armor vs/+ Class bonus to AC

[outlawjt]

I'd like to officially make the suggestion that armor bonuses and class bonuses to AC should not stack by default. At higher levels the advantages are muted by faster BAB progression but at low levels them stacking is fairly broken. Every single game system that employs armor and class bonuses rule that the two don't stack. There are rare exceptions but they require the investment of talents or feats.

I'd propose one of two solutions so armor users don't feel they are being nerfed unfairly.

Solution 1) require a feat to allow them to stack. First feat allows half armor bonus stacking with class bonus. Second feat allows full armor bonus stacking with class bonus.

Solution 2) enhancement bonuses on armor always stack with class bonus but you only stack a fraction of the base armor with the class bonus. The percent of the base armor that stacks increases every 2-4 levels (formula to be decided based on the most balanced progression to keep relative pace with BAB progression).

[blackestofmages]

it already stacks. already had this descusion

[Major]

No, his argument is that it shouldn't. He feels stacking is too powerful at low levels. We had a long debate about this on the other site.

He says require a feat in order for it to stack or something.

[blackestofmages]

hmmm, not really. since the plan is you have to spend your abilities to get armour, since there's no WBL, you're kinda already paying the feat, no?

and we've had this discusion. he missed it so it stays stacking.

[Major]

I know we had the discussion and he knows it stacks. His complaint was that at level one a Fullbringer with a fullplate armor has

10+8(AC)+4(Class)=22 AC.

Which is quote "unfair for the rest because they can't hit that". I personally don't see the big deal since assuming a +1BAB and +4 attack stat you have +5. Even a +3 attack stat is +4.

It also doesn't apply to touch attacks or saves. Slows down movement, and more.

But I'll wait till he comes back to argue his point.

The other site we had a LONG debate about this and then I was like "look, let's stop filling the ooc and take it somewhere that actually matters"

Edit: and "He missed it so it stays" is rather stupid. I realize that with everybody posting here we are busy, but it never hurts to relook at a conversation...

[blackestofmages]

ok, fine...

lets assume level 1 he tooks armour. he has no attack power, and moves slowly. lets say the +3/4 attack stat, maybe the +4 to to one stat ability, then the character would have around +8 to hit (masterwork weapon), so they need a 14. high, but when someones spent all their abilities on defence, not that high. if someone has gone pure defence AND can be hit on a 10+, then theirs something very wrong.

and 1st level is always purely random anyway

I'm surprised he missed fullbring defence is gone, so even if he takes fullplate, his max ac is only 2 more and he can't add dex to that (I'm mean. it's fun)

[Major]

Shinigami don't get masterwork weapons until level 2. Also he took sealed. (His own fault, but still)

Also we are talking level 1.

Thus the "22 is too high for level 1" comment.

Anyways, I'll wait and let him comment. I can't argue his point when I disagree with it

[Dionon]

Why doesnt' he get his own suit of armor? That's a possibility in this game right? I mean Komamora wears armor.

[blackestofmages]

because that takes away something he can complain about...

[Major]

Because Shinigami get it via shikai abilities and he sealed his shikai...

Plus Shinigami don't get shikai till level 3.

So the point is a Fullbringer can get armor at level one and a Shinigami has to wait till level 3, plus he chose to sacrifice getting abilities for more stats and exp...

[blackestofmages]

So the point is a Fullbringer can get armor at level one and a Shinigami has to wait till level 3, plus he chose to sacrifice getting abilities for more stats and exp

so he took a feat with the effect you suck compared to everyone else in exchange for being better than them later, and is upset it makes him suck compared to everyone else?

I'd say this would be solved easier by moving shikai to level 1 rather than 3. have we ever seen a shinigami other than ichigo/kenpachi* who didn't know their swords name. it seems to be the thing thats tought at shinigami school to me

* and even these two had the whole constant release thing going on due to being stupid powerful, so still another favour of level 1

[outlawjt]

Back to the only argument I actually wanted to get into.........

If it's definitive that armor stacking with class bonus is going to remain I have a proposed rework of the armor abilities (for both Fullbringer and Shinigami).

First the Fullbringer:

Armor

Prerequisites- None
Activation Cost- None
The Fullbring takes on the properties of a suit of armor. When this ability is selected they either choose for it to be light or heavy armor and that choice becomes permanent. It takes a form shaped by their imagination irregardless of it's properties. Light armor provides the Fullbringer with a base armor bonus of 2 + 1 per 3 levels, has a maximum dexterity bonus of +5, and no armor check penalty. Heavy armor provides the Fullbringer with a base armor bonus of 3 + 1 per 2 levels, has a maximum dexterity bonus of +2, an armor check penalty of -4, and lowers the users base speed by 10 feet while it is activated. The armor may include a pair of gauntlets but they are not effected by the character's Fullbring and simply count as a masterwork pair of gauntlets appropriate for the Fullbringer's size.
As the Fullbringer levels up, the Fullbring becomes a more powerful tool. The armor created has the enhancement bonus and echantments as shown on the Fullbringer class features. When they attain a new enchantment they can reselect their original enchantment if they so choose or select a more powerful enchantment in place of both selections so long as their total enchantment does not exceed the bonus listed for the class.
The Fullbringer can choose to activate or deactivate her armor at any time as a free action. If she has it active, she must have all parts of it active at once.
Once the armor is chosen, it cannot be changed.
Fullbring Evolution: The suit of armour has it's maximum dexterity increased by 2, and reduce the armour check penalties by 2. The enhancement bonus of the item is doubled, as is the total number of enhancements available. During Evolution heavy armor no longer reduces the Fullbringer's speed.
Ultimate Evolution: The armour's maximum dexterity is increased, and it's armour check penalty reduced, by an amount equal to their Reiatsu modifier. The enhancement bonus for their suit of armour, and the total number of enhancements available, are tripled.


Feats-

Enhanced Armor
Prereq: The armor Fullbring ability, +1 Fullbring
Benefit: The Fullbringer may add an additional armor enchantment to their Fullbring armor. It's enchantment bonus may be no greater than 1 higher than their current Fullbring enhancement bonus. The total enchantment bonus cannot equal more than twice the Fullbring's enhancement bonus.
Special: Enchantments gained through this feat are not doubled during evolution and not tripled during ultimate evolution.

Enhanced Weapon
Prereq: +1 Fullbring weapon
Benefit: The Fullbringer may add an additional weapon enchantment to their Fullbring weapon. It's enchantment bonus may be no greater than 1 higher than their current Fullbring enhancement bonus. The total enchantment bonus cannot equal more than twice the Fullbring's regular enhancement bonus.
Special: Enchantments gained through this feat are not doubled during evolution or tripled during ultimate evolution if the Fullbringer has the weapon Fullbring ability. If they have the weapon Fullbring ability and it manifests as a double or dual weapons the enchantment is only applied to one weapon. Alternately if they have the weapon take the form of a single weapon and shield they can use this feat to apply shield enchantments instead.


Now the Shinigami:

Armor of the Gods
Prereq: none
This causes your zanpakutou to encase you in a suit or armor. When this ability is selected you choose either light or heavy armor. This choice is permanent for shikai but can be reassigned as normal during bankai. Light armor provides the Shinigami with a base armor bonus of 2 + 1 per 3 levels, has a maximum dexterity bonus of +5, and no armor check penalty. Heavy armor provides the Shinigami with a base armor bonus of 3 + 1 per 2 levels, has a maximum dexterity bonus of +2, an armor check penalty of -4, and lowers the users base speed by 10 feet while it is active. This ability may also manifest a shield. If it does, the shield counts as a masterwork version of the shield chosen.

Enhanced Armor of the Gods
Prereq: Armor of the Gods, +1 Zanpakutou
Benefit: Your armor gains an enhancemnt bonus. This bonus is equal to the enhancement bonus of your zanpakutou as per the class features. Additionally it gains a +1 enchantment for every 6 levels of the Shinigami. Each time a new enchantment is gained they can be reassigned so long as the total enchantment bonus from this ability doesn't exceed the total earned by their level. If their armor also manifest a shield it's enhancement bonus is always 1 less than that of the armor. Enchantments can be applied to the shield as well as the armor so long as the total bonus doesn't exceed that allowed by their level.

Greater Armor of the Gods
Prereq: Armor of the Gods, Enhanced Armor of the Gods, 1 additional Barrier ability
Benefit: Your armor (or shield) gains an additional enchantment. The bonus of the enchantment selected can be no more than 1 greater than the armor's current enchantment bonus. The total bonus of all enchantments can not equal more than twice it's enhancement bonus.
Special: If selected during bankai there is no limit to the amount of enchantments that may be taken.

Bankai ability:
Perfect Armor of the Gods
Prereq: Armor of the Gods, Enhanced Armor of the Gods
Benefit: The enhancement bonus and enchantments provided by enhanced Armor of the Gods is double during bankai. Additionally the maximum dexterity bonus the armor provides is increased by 2 and the armor check penalty lessened by 2. During bankai heavy armor no longer reduces your speed.




There we go. This both addresses my issue about armor stacking being overpowered at lower levels AND increases armor's usefulness at higher levels when it would otherwise fade out as BAB scales. Additionally it redresses the balance between Fullbringer and Shinigami in regards to armor while allowing the Fullbringer to maintain a slight base advantage. As well as provides an option for the Fullbringer to further improve it like the Shinigami can. I added the feat to improve the Fullbringer's weapon as well since it works basically the same way as the armor version of the feat. In line with my efforts here (if they are considered for incorporation into the game) I'd suggest the weapon enhancement shikai ability receive a similar reworking to reflect the new paradigm. I'd do it myself but I don't have the time right now. Maybe I'll add that here later.

[blackestofmages]

fullbringer: looks fine, though it does make a little more book keeping. I'm going to restrain from changing it right now as your the first person we've had express a concern about the AC bonus, and I don't want to cheese everyone else off making the change right now. If we have more people find the static bonus overpowered, then this one'll be implemented.
Minor problem: right now, since the problem only occurs at low levels there's very little reason to choose heavy over light at the levels where the AC was a problem, which could make this fix counter productive
also, you kept the doubling/trippling to enhancement bonuses, which where changed a while ago...

armour of the gods: so your answer to the fact this was overshadowed before is to make it weaker? give them the base enhancements back, man, don;t be mean to poor, underpowered shinigami

lastly, how have you fixed the power gap? you've kicked armour of the gods in the teeth on enhancements without doing a darned thing to lower the effectiveness of fullbring armour.

weapon of the gods will be changed when we do the weapon zanpakuto type

[outlawjt]

Part of the problems in my suggestion probably comes from the fact I was referencing the wiki when I wrote it. When I have time later I will try and find the most current versions of both the Fullbringer and Shinigami armor abilities on here and edit/repost my suggestions accordingly. I wouldn't be upset if someone took a stab at doing it before then, though, taking my base idea and upgrading/editing it more in line with the updated versions not yet posted on the wiki.

I disagree about kicking armor of the gods in the teeth, though. Instead of the improvement in bonus being part of the base ability (which isn't near as important with my proposal shifting the base to a scaling armor bonus) I moved it to a second ability which also gives them a limited enchantment progression. The thinking behind this was to bring two shikai selections for armor in line with though just slightly behind the single fullbring ability. Minus evolution, of course, but evolution is offset simply by Shinigami having extra shikai abilities they can use to keep selecting greater weapon of the gods. I suppose if you feel I shorted Shinigami you could add a line to my version of greater weapon of the gods to allow it to increase the enhancement bonus by +1.

As to my suggestions implementation..... I'm not going to demand it be incorporated or try and force it on anyone outside any game I may run eventually. I am going to ask if you could make all the appropriate team members have a look at it for consideration. While it lowers the usefulness of armor at lower levels (in my opinion to a manageable level while still making the ability worthwhile) it also increases their usefulness at high levels answering the argument some people have that armor becomes overshadowed by attack at high levels because BAB scales faster.

As to choosing heavy over light? At first level light is better since it lacks the penalties heavy carries. Heavy scales faster and ultimately allows for a reasonably higher AC and it's penalties are partially negated at evolution (and can be partially negated by a bankai ability in my suggestion). They can be further negated with the agile armor enchantment. It's a matter of short term favoring light armor and long term favoring heavy armor while both remain viable for the character's entire lifespan.

My apologies my suggestion does create a little more bookkeeping. I think it makes things more balance overall. And it gives you new feats for the Fullbringer. You should be happy about that, right? It even leaves the door open for a whole slew of new feats for Fullbringer (ability specific feats that add a moderate improvement to an existing ability that doesn't scale with evolution).

[blackestofmages]

Part of the problems in my suggestion probably comes from the fact I was referencing the wiki when I wrote it. When I have time later I will try and find the most current versions of both the Fullbringer and Shinigami armor abilities on here and edit/repost my suggestions accordingly. I wouldn't be upset if someone took a stab at doing it before then, though, taking my base idea and upgrading/editing it more in line with the updated versions not yet posted on the wiki.

fairy snuff. see, this is part of the reason me and major thought you where crazy is weapon/armour has been brought down considerably, whilst armour of the gods has been buffed a little. (well, me anywhay, I can't speak for major because he's crazy himself)

current idea for weapon/armour fullbring is the same base, with evolution giving +5 to split between enhancements/bonus, and ultimate giving +10 to split between. and a further ability to buy more stuff, whilst armour of the gods has had a second ability added giving scaling armour enhancements as well as bonus