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Post by outlawjt on Dec 4, 2011 2:54:32 GMT -5
In the average D&D game tanks start off with AC in the 17-19 (with lucky rolls/generous point buy) range at first level. Full plate doesn't even become affordable till 3rd. Not to mention an offensive melee based character has no chance of overcoming that massive AC for the first several levels consistently enough to make it a fair and balanced fight. Leaving it as is works great for people high on using armor but completely screws anyone who wants to make a pure offensive melee character because they'll never overcome that AC fast enough before the armored characters slightly lower attack power brings them down.
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Post by Shirokiba on Dec 4, 2011 2:57:36 GMT -5
in a 1 vs 1 fight the guy in armor is going to have an advantage, cause armor vs no armor is an advantage. Especially in the original D&D system
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Post by Dionon on Dec 4, 2011 3:04:01 GMT -5
In the average D&D game tanks start off with AC in the 17-19 (with lucky rolls/generous point buy) range at first level. Full plate doesn't even become affordable till 3rd. Not to mention an offensive melee based character has no chance of overcoming that massive AC for the first several levels consistently enough to make it a fair and balanced fight. Leaving it as is works great for people high on using armor but completely screws anyone who wants to make a pure offensive melee character because they'll never overcome that AC fast enough before the armored characters slightly lower attack power brings them down. A good melee character is going to have a +6 to hit at first level. That means they can hit the fullbringer 25% of the time. The tank fullbringer, which is good for a tank. Honestly, I'd rather see damage reduction in play here, then I'd go for your lower system, but since Damage Reduction is a moot point at this stage, I'd rather stick to what works instead of changing the system for the worse.
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Post by outlawjt on Dec 4, 2011 3:17:11 GMT -5
20%, not 25%. With full plate and class bonus and a +1 dex the 1st level armor character has 23 AC to +6 attack of the pure melee character. IF it's a Fullbringer and they use the expanded fullbring feat to also take weapon they can add a shield bringing it to 25 making it a 10% chance. That is not balanced in any way shape or form at 1st level!
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Post by Shirokiba on Dec 4, 2011 3:20:54 GMT -5
Well, if you can't hit their armor class, someone using Kido can easily restrain their movements, that and Kido that provoke saves or use touch attacks will make all that armor bonus useless, leaving only class bonus and maybe a shield bonus.
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Post by blackestofmages on Dec 4, 2011 3:22:29 GMT -5
the problem here is that 1st level is never balanced in any way, shape or form because the 3.5 system was written to start at level 3-4 when main class features kick in. the low levels where written for use for enemies. and by that level (say 3) you can have a nice, respectable +9/10, which is much more balanced. and this is without a lot of expenditure to get there and there's still attacks that say "AC, WTF is that" and will turn that tank into salami for having high AC, and then he'll feel a little bit of a tool
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Post by Major on Dec 4, 2011 3:23:49 GMT -5
That and you can only use it one encounter per day... If Kido, touch attacks, other ways to pump, critical hits, attacks that require saves, charges, etc can't do it (and they can) you laugh that you have a sword all day while the fullbringer has one use.
I'm sorry that I find it silly to make a tank unable to tank. You keep bringing up 3.5, but AC is basically irrelevant in 3.5 because it's a game of rocket tag and you can't fight defensively.
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Post by outlawjt on Dec 4, 2011 3:24:41 GMT -5
Do you think one character build should be able to completely negate another? Make that other build completely useless?
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Post by Major on Dec 4, 2011 3:26:26 GMT -5
It doesn't. Please stop ignoring everything I say.
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Post by Shirokiba on Dec 4, 2011 3:27:05 GMT -5
the problem here is that 1st level is never balanced in any way, shape or form because the 3.5 system was written to start at level 3-4 when main class features kick in. the low levels where written for use for enemies. and by that level (say 3) you can have a nice, respectable +9/10, which is much more balanced. and this is without a lot of expenditure to get there and there's still attacks that say "AC, WTF is that" and will turn that tank into salami for having high AC, and then he'll feel a little bit of a tool Yup, I pointed out a few That and you can only use it one encounter per day... If Kido, touch attacks, other ways to pump, critical hits, attacks that require saves, charges, etc can't do it (and they can) you laugh that you have a sword all day while the fullbringer has one use. I'm sorry that I find it silly to make a tank unable to tank. You keep bringing up 3.5, but AC is basically irrelevant in 3.5 because it's a game of rocket tag and you can't fight defensively. Eh, I had an insane AC in 3.5 that made me nearly untouchable, using Sorcerer/Monk/Abjurant Champion/Enlightened Fist
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Post by Major on Dec 4, 2011 3:31:36 GMT -5
That's cool that you had high AC until you realized that tabletops are a team game and different people counter different things. For instance some people got ways to make people flatfooted, this counters high dex people. Some have touch attacks, this counters armor people. Others have attacks that require saves, this takes out things that got high ac in both.
There are multiple difference defenses to hit. I'm sorry that sometimes one gets good versus one thing and suffers versus another.
Hell, a kido shinigami (or even an expert) could get higher AC using Kido and a nice dex.
When you come across heavily armored guys you change tactics. You keep the party kido user, or guy with reflex attacks, etc to nail the person.
No one character beats everything. (Well, except the D&D wizard...) That's why different classes exist and why there are THREE different ways to make attacks (touch, flat-footed, saves) in addition to the regular hit. If Armor added +8 to saves, +8 to touch, +8 to flatfooted THEN you could complain.
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Post by blackestofmages on Dec 4, 2011 3:31:59 GMT -5
again, level 1 is unbalanced. it always will be, it always has been. and that feat thats learning weapon? it's picking up the other guy's save based ability to slap you with (bow attribute/sealed ability/expanded fullbring/modsouls have one ability anyway/bount don't count). There's just as much access to things that IGNORE AC as there is to AC at 1st level, so there's arguments your system isn't enough because no-one targets ac as well. so should their build be totally unuseable because its not good at what it does protect themselves against, and offers no protection against anything else. don't forget, these characters are closer to sorcerors than fighters. they have limited options, but still those options and yes, there are times when one build will completly sdhut down another, because the mechanics system we're using was built to be a hybrid between regular table top rpg and wargaming, with an assumed min size group of 4. heck, the "wizard can't be countered" is the biggest complain about 3.5
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Post by Major on Dec 4, 2011 3:34:36 GMT -5
It's like rock-paper-scissors. "Oh shoot, I hit flat-footed, I can't hit this armored guy!" "Don't worry, I got kido and attacks that do touch attacks!" "Oh sweet, team work! I'm not the only person in the world!"
Some builds lock down other builds (like stand-still reach crusaders lock down non-teleporters and melee units. But ranged, wizards, and teleports will negate that. Uber charger might drop most things, but difficult terrain can leave him useless, etc. There ARE counters to most builds../)
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Post by outlawjt on Dec 4, 2011 3:35:31 GMT -5
I really don't understand the resistance here. My proposal makes armor MUCH better in the longrun and the only cost is making it not broken for the first few levels. As is while it stacks with class bonus armor is broken for the first several levels and no one has presented an argument yet to convince me otherwise. Would you rather have better than average ACs now but awesome ACs at high levels or broken ACs now but 'meh' ACs at high levels?
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Post by blackestofmages on Dec 4, 2011 3:35:37 GMT -5
gotta love 3.5s circular loic here though ways to hit people avaliable at level 1 base AC touch AC Reflex saves flat footed + flank + charge pick up your own armour and have a tank-off (not advised. poekmon teaches small children this) ranged combat since the guy's pure melee I can go on. it counters one build, but can be countered by lots. thus, all in all, fair. we're building a team, social system, not one built for one on one combat.
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